In this episode of Frame by Frame, host Daniel Mogg is joined by Liam Hughes, the award-winning filmmaker behind Netflix’s Enigma, a documentary offering an unprecedented look into the life of NFL legend Aaron Rodgers.
Liam shares his journey from acting to directing, revealing how his pivot to filmmaking shaped his approach to storytelling.
The conversation delves deep into the art and challenges of creating an intimate portrait of a high-profile figure. Liam discusses the minimalist yet impactful production style that helped capture Aaron’s vulnerability, from shooting solo in Costa Rica to weaving the complex narrative of an athlete wrestling with legacy, fame, and personal growth.
Listeners will gain insight into Liam’s creative process, including the instinct-driven editing that shaped the documentary, the themes of spirituality and self-discovery explored in Aaron’s off-season, and the strategies behind structuring a story in real-time. Liam also shares advice for aspiring filmmakers, emphasizing the importance of adaptability, intuition, and building a strong portfolio.
Whether you're a filmmaker, sports enthusiast, or just curious about the behind-the-scenes process of creating a Netflix hit, this episode is packed with inspiration and practical insights.
00:00 - Intro
"How Liam Hughes Captured Aaron Rodgers’ Untold Story"
00:25 - First Impressions of Aaron Rodgers
"Award-winning filmmaker Liam Hughes on working with Aaron Rodgers"
01:02 - Liam’s Journey from Acting to Filmmaking
"From the stage to behind the camera: Liam’s creative pivot"
03:11 - Building a Portfolio in Film
"How Liam started making short films and breaking into the industry"
06:26 - Finding Success in Documentaries
"How Religion of Sports shaped Liam’s filmmaking career"
09:34 - Directing McGregor Forever and Destination NBA
"Lessons learned from high-profile sports documentaries"
13:05 - The Birth of the Aaron Rodgers Documentary
"How an idea became Enigma: A pivotal headline sparks a story"
16:24 - Meeting Aaron Rodgers for the First Time
"Learning to build trust and capture vulnerability"
19:17 - Exploring Vulnerability in Enigma
"Turning a sports doc into a personal journey"
23:13 - Crafting a Killer Opening Scene
"The story behind Enigma’s striking intro sequence"
26:33 - Structuring a Real-Time Documentary
"Balancing the past, present, and future in storytelling"
32:05 - Behind the Scenes in Costa Rica
"Minimalist filmmaking and capturing intimacy"
38:14 - Technical Gear and Challenges
"Shooting Enigma with RED cameras and a small crew"
45:08 - Making a Premium Documentary with Limited Resources
"Why intimacy matters more than a big production crew"
50:05 - Aaron Rodgers’ Legacy and Spirituality
"How fame, pressure, and personal growth shaped the story"
52:14 - Editing a Complex Documentary
"Whittling down hundreds of hours into a cohesive narrative"
57:20 - Balancing Creative Vision with Studio Feedback
"Navigating Netflix’s note process while staying true to the story"
01:03:12 - Liam’s Advice for Aspiring Filmmakers
"Follow your instincts and start creating"
01:06:27 - What’s Next for Liam Hughes
"Exploring YouTube and building a personal audience"
01:08:47 - Closing Thoughts
"Reflecting on the journey of Enigma and the future of filmmaking"
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00:00:00:00 - 00:00:25:09
Liam
always feel a little intimidated going in, you know, because this is a person I respect, I admire who's achieved these incredible heights. It can be a little intimidating. And Aaron is one of those people who just puts you at ease. You know, he's he's certainly put me at ease. From the start, I didn't really feel like I was hanging out with, four time NFL MVP, Super Bowl champion, first ballot Hall of Fame quarterback.
00:00:25:11 - 00:00:39:11
Liam
You know what I mean? And I don't know what I would expect from someone like that, but he just wasn't what I expected, you know? And that's always really cool to me when someone surprises me from from the very start. I think that's a good thing,
00:00:39:15 - 00:00:43:23
Unknown
Music.
00:00:44:09 - 00:01:02:12
Daniel
So today's guests I'm really excited about. We have Liam Hughes, who is the award winning filmmaker and director of the latest Enigma documentary featuring Aaron Rodgers on Netflix. Liam, it's a pleasure to have you on the Frame by Frame podcast.
00:01:02:12 - 00:01:20:11
Daniel
It's, exciting time for you. The documentary is just really recently come out, and I know you've been working on it for a while. And I really want to get into it and dive into it. But let's start a little bit with your backstory. I know, you know, when you and I were catching up that I didn't know this, but you actually started in front of the camera doing some acting.
00:01:20:16 - 00:01:28:20
Liam
I did, yeah, I did theater all through high school. I was, very serious soccer player as well, but I always did theater as well.
00:01:28:20 - 00:01:38:16
Liam
And when I went to college, I wasn't doing theater anymore. I was just playing soccer, and I kind of burned out. I feel like that that balance with the arts was really important to me.
00:01:38:16 - 00:01:49:00
Liam
got into a master's in screen acting because I, I liked theater, but, but the kind of, like, performing the same thing every night, six, six times a week was not really my speed.
00:01:49:00 - 00:02:15:08
Liam
I always was more drawn to to film. So I went to the screen acting course. And while I was studying to be a screen actor, I realized that I'm really not very comfortable in front of the camera. And I'm really not much of an actor, if I'm honest with myself. But, we were really exposed to the filmmaking process on that course, and I was very drawn to the filmmaking process.
00:02:15:09 - 00:02:24:14
Liam
So what happened was I was kind of getting towards the end of film school, and I had a very kind of, make my own start mentality. I was very inspired by
00:02:28:07 - 00:02:34:22
Liam
Yeah.
00:02:34:22 - 00:02:45:12
Liam
in, but I had this kind of profound moment in my acting career where I actually looked at the script one night and thought, you know, I'm not really right for this role.
00:02:45:14 - 00:02:50:21
Liam
And so I just end up casting it and directing it. And I kind of haven't looked back since then.
00:02:51:11 - 00:03:11:21
Daniel
Man. Well, it's cool that you, like, realize that early. Because I felt like that acting and filmmaking is a grind, too. But, like, you didn't get too far into it to to be able to pivot. So then take me through. You do this short film. What's kind of next and how do you start building, you know, your reel and portfolio all.
00:03:17:02 - 00:03:38:00
Liam
so I would write scripts and, or collaborate, collaborate with other writers. And, you know, I'd met cinematographers on my acting course. I'd met producers, I'd met all types of people. And so I kind of just tried to form teams with people who have more experience than me, to go and make these films.
00:03:38:00 - 00:04:02:13
Liam
And it was really just making things, I think was the way that I started to find my voice as a creative, and that I started to showcase my abilities, you know, because, I made a handful of short films. I never got into any, you know, big tentpole festivals, never got that much buzz around them. But people enjoyed them and they were good quality.
00:04:02:15 - 00:04:23:00
Liam
Visually, I always had original music written for them. I think I got really lucky with actors. And so I made good short films, you know, and I think it got people's attention, and it meant that I had a body of work that I could share with people. When I moved to LA, and I was trying to get into the industry and actually start working, you know, not just making indie short films.
00:04:23:02 - 00:04:44:11
Liam
I had this the shorts that I could, that I could show to people. And, you know, I think they were they were good. And so people saw that I, I had some, some talent, some ability and obviously some some drive in the fact that I got all this stuff done. So I think it was really just going out and making things that was so
00:04:44:20 - 00:05:34:12
Daniel
Yeah. And what was your process? You know, a lot of young filmmakers out there are that, you know, have this question of like, do I go to LA and start making stuff? Do I make stuff before and then go to LA? What did that whole process look like for you as you're in LA now?
00:06:08:05 - 00:06:26:20
Daniel
100%. Yeah. And that's why I wanted to kind of kind of lean into that. And I know there's probably viewers, listeners at home trying to, you know, figure that out for themselves. Now, take me to religion of Sports. That's where you and I met working on Greatness Code for Russell Wilson's episode. Loved working with you guys. Was that like your first stop?
00:06:26:20 - 00:06:38:16
Daniel
Where what stop was Religion of Sports for you on your journey?
00:06:38:18 - 00:07:10:04
Liam
Oh yeah.
00:07:10:06 - 00:07:10:22
Liam
Oh, yeah.
00:07:11:00 - 00:07:11:18
Daniel
The Nike one.
00:07:11:21 - 00:07:15:03
Liam
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:07:15:03 - 00:07:19:07
Liam
assistant editor for a week, and I came and I kind of just never left.
00:07:19:07 - 00:07:43:03
Liam
And I ended up being the finishing editor on that documentary. The director, Martin Rowe, I think kind of saw something in me and took me under his wing. And I'm really grateful for all the opportunities he gave me over the course. The next three years I produced, I was a camera operator. I was an assistant editor, I was an editor, a story producer.
00:07:43:03 - 00:08:10:06
Liam
I kind of got this incredible amount of experience on on great productions, from Nike commercials to documentaries. And it was just a great place to cut my teeth, you know, really creative people, really great people, kind of work hard, play hard mentality, you know, that was great for me in my mid late 20s. And, that's where I found the documentary world, and I, and I really, really fell in love with it.
00:08:10:06 - 00:08:29:22
Liam
You know, up until that point, I'd just been making independent narrative films. I hadn't really gotten anywhere in terms of making a living and making a career. And documentaries was really the world that kind of open that up to me. And so, like I said, I worked on a couple, religion sports productions. Why We Fight was one of them.
00:08:29:22 - 00:08:49:17
Liam
I was a big camera operator on that. And I did a little bit editorial work on, seasons two and three of Religion of Sports. And so there was a moment when things dried up, a little bit of Dirty Robber and I just, reached out to Gautham Chopra, who's one of the founders of Religion Sports, who I knew kind of through that network and sat down with him.
00:08:49:17 - 00:09:25:03
Liam
And at the time, this was the beginning of 2020. They needed help in development. And so I came to really new sports January 2020 and just started working in development, making decks, making pitch decks, mostly, and then, yeah, greatness. Code season two was the first production that I really did for them, and I produced that series, worked closely on the creative with Gotham and, like you say, that's when we met in Seattle at the Seattle Public Library filming Russell Wilson's interview for that series.
00:09:25:08 - 00:09:34:10
Daniel
Yes. And I am. If you can't tell, I'm here in downtown Seattle. So you hear a few trains go by. So being, authentic to Seattle?
00:09:34:10 - 00:09:53:07
Daniel
Now, you also directed co-directed the G League with, you know, with our boy, Bryant Robinson. Good friend of mine as well. Great, dude. How much of that project experience really sets you up for Enigma?
00:09:53:07 - 00:10:13:20
Liam
part of it, you know? It was definitely part of it. I think the first project that I was part of that really set me up for Enigma, I would say, is McGregor forever, which was also on Netflix. I was credit as co-director on that one. I started out as really I started out as a producer, really.
00:10:13:20 - 00:10:31:21
Liam
I went over to Ireland and went through this big archival footage with, Irish co-director over there. And that project ended up being a long, really, like, two year process because Conor had a serious injury and he had some layoffs and there was a lot to figure out. But that was the first project that I led for Netflix.
00:10:31:21 - 00:10:55:13
Liam
It was very successful when it came out. I think it hit number two in the States and number one in the UK. And that really kind of opened the door for me to get some more solo directing opportunities. And that's where, destination MBA came in. Of course, I co-directed that with Brian, as he said, and he was kind of more focused on being in the field, and I was a little more focused in the edit.
00:10:55:15 - 00:11:24:07
Liam
That's how we kind of divided, our, you know, our skill sets, if you will. And on that project, and that was really cool. And I think that, the important experience that I got with that project was directing and shooting verité, because that was that was a real verité documentary. I did a little bit of shooting on on McGregor forever, but, as a most part, the Irish production team were handling all the shooting and we were mostly, direct and edit.
00:11:24:09 - 00:11:57:04
Liam
So I think destination NBA was really important for me in terms of crafting verité. You know, figuring out what shoots we need with different characters to tell the story that we're trying to tell about them. And yeah, that came out on Amazon Prime called last year in the summer and how time flies. And then I did another one, last year called The Game That Changed Everything, which was about game four of the 2004 World Series, when the Red Sox turned the tide in that historic, curse breaking
00:12:08:22 - 00:12:12:10
Daniel
Oh, yeah. Shout out Michael Vader.
00:12:12:12 - 00:12:36:20
Liam
Yeah.
00:12:36:20 - 00:12:41:08
Liam
And then, yeah, I haven't worked on
00:12:47:12 - 00:13:05:12
Daniel
I bet. Yeah. Let's let's get into that now. You know, it's funny, like, I remember actually seeing you on TV a couple times. I'm like, oh, man, they're up to something. But based on what I could tell, this was really wasn't into the works until after the injury happened. Correct?
00:13:05:12 - 00:13:26:11
Liam
He got surgery about a week later, and for from my perspective, this is how it happened, right? I saw an interview on the Pat McAfee show a couple days after he got surgery. This was the first time that Aaron spoke publicly after his injury that they calculate up, and he's telling them how the surgery went.
00:13:26:11 - 00:13:50:08
Liam
Surgery went well. And then he made this statement that ended up in a headline that I saw, which is he said, give me your doubts and watch what I do. And I'm paraphrasing because it was a little longer than that, but I remember seeing that turned into a headline, give me your doubts and watch what I do. And I was like, damn, like, that's a pretty amazing attitude, you know?
00:13:50:10 - 00:14:10:22
Liam
And that that said something about a man who I'd already been kind of interested in, just because he seems like an interesting guy. And so I reached out to Gotham, and I was like. And our, head of development at the time, and I said, hey, guys, like, do you think there's a play for the, like, Aaron Rodgers recovery doc?
00:14:11:00 - 00:14:27:21
Liam
You know, and of course I wasn't the first person to think about it. And you know wheels already turning and a lot of people's heads I hate to say on this because it seems it feels very, like a little bit juristic at times to like, see a big athlete
00:14:32:13 - 00:14:40:14
Daniel
Right. Right.
00:14:40:16 - 00:14:46:04
Daniel
That helps.
00:14:46:04 - 00:14:53:20
Liam
out to Aaron to give him his best wishes. And, Aaron was like, yeah, you know, I'm finding some comfort in this, Kobe Bryant documentary.
00:14:53:20 - 00:15:09:21
Liam
I found called muse. You know, where he's recovering from an Achilles. And Tom said, oh, well, you know, you know, my my business partner Gotham directed that film. You know, if you have any interest in telling your story as you recover from this injury, you should reach out to Gotham. You know, I think you guys would vibe.
00:15:09:21 - 00:15:31:23
Liam
And Aaron reached out and Gotham and Aaron met. And, you know, I think because I had already expressed an interest in this story, was a big part of the reason that I, ended up being the one to partner with Gotham in, in telling it. But yeah, I met Aaron for the first time on September 26th, 2023, which was 13 days after surgery.
00:15:32:03 - 00:16:24:20
Daniel
Yeah. So take me in. What was that? That first meeting like? It's clearly. You don't know each other. I feel like based on my, like, working with athletes, it does take a little. You know, it's like learning to dance. It takes a little bit to learn the steps to. To get to know them.
00:16:24:22 - 00:16:25:15
Daniel
Right.
00:16:25:17 - 00:16:53:08
Liam
Yeah.
00:16:58:13 - 00:17:23:22
Liam
always feel a little intimidated going in, you know, because this is a person I respect, I admire who's achieved these incredible heights. It can be a little intimidating. And Aaron is one of those people who just puts you at ease. You know, he's he's certainly put me at ease. From the start, I didn't really feel like I was hanging out with, four time NFL MVP, Super Bowl champion, first ballot Hall of Fame quarterback.
00:17:24:00 - 00:17:38:00
Liam
You know what I mean? And I don't know what I would expect from someone like that, but he just wasn't what I expected, you know? And that's always really cool to me when someone surprises me from from the very start. I think that's a good thing,
00:17:38:00 - 00:17:42:14
Liam
you know? And that's really exciting to me. So I think from.
00:17:42:15 - 00:18:13:15
Liam
Yeah, from day one, I felt like there's a comfort here. There's a he seems very open. And I think that's going to really lend itself to good storytelling at the end of the day, you know, because if someone's willing to be open and, vulnerable. And I saw openness and vulnerability, you know, that first day that I met him and we did a little otf shoot and I filmed his, his body coach doing some extra work on his Achilles.
00:18:13:17 - 00:18:33:20
Liam
It's interesting, actually, that first day he was doing this, like, it didn't end up being in the doc, but it was some kind of like, there was a thing going. He was sitting on this grounding pad, and then his body worker was like doing like moving the energy across his ankle just with his hands. He wasn't touching anything.
00:18:33:20 - 00:18:51:03
Liam
He was just harnessing the energy that was coming out of this thing. It was really interesting and it was very Aaron Rodgers, you know, just based on what you hear about the guy and the stuff he's into in this and that. But yeah, I was just I was surprised from day one,
00:18:52:09 - 00:19:17:03
Daniel
No. And that's. That's what I would want to get into it. Like, for me. My reaction. You know, having just watched it, I was, like, very surprised at all the things you just said. One like the openness and vulnerability that he shared. And really, like, I think my favorite part was probably like episode two where it like really opened up or it didn't feel like I was watching like a traditional sports doc anymore.
00:19:17:03 - 00:19:43:07
Daniel
It was about a man like wrestling with fame and all these different things that come with like a great career. And so I was like, I was really into it. I think the access he gave and the vulnerability he shared, you know, was like really unlike I think anything we've seen as of late was that something that like took a little bit of time or was he pretty, you know, pretty open and honest right away.
00:21:03:19 - 00:21:31:14
Liam
ultimately way more interesting to us. Because he and teed up the next episode, you know, we teared up at the end of episode one. He has this, this kind of revelation after winning the Super Bowl that seemed very unique to me. I mean, I've never heard of another athlete who reaches the pinnacle, you know, wins the Super Bowl or the NBA championship or the World Series or the World Cup or, you know, name your sport the top pinnacle of your sport.
00:21:31:16 - 00:22:12:05
Liam
And hours later is having a moment of like, personal existential crisis about whether or not they've, you know, dedicated their life to the right thing. I mean, that was so unique to me. And I remember being in that in the interview that we the kind of master interview that we did for episode one and hearing him say that I'm like, wow, you know, so that was a real shift going into episode two that we felt was really more about Aaron the Man, Aaron the seeker, Aaron the the kind of spiritual being, which really paired well with his off season where he was, going to Costa Rica to continue his journey with plant medicine,
00:22:12:07 - 00:22:42:06
Liam
where he was going to Egypt on a spiritual adventure that he's, he's dreamt about for a long time. So it worked really well to kind of pair football with the season pair, the personal with the off season. And then as we got back into the, the preseason for this year, working up towards that return to field, that's when we kind of dealt with a lot of the the Covid controversy and, the idea of legacy, really.
00:22:42:06 - 00:22:44:03
Liam
And what is his legacy?
00:22:44:03 - 00:23:13:09
Daniel
Yeah. I want to get into episode two. But I got to start with, you know, all good films, whether narrative documentary, usually have a killer opening scene. And I thought this one was awesome. Where I hadn't heard the song. People you Don't know before. How did that track come about? And just, like, piecing it all together the way you guys did that, I just thought was a phenomenal way to start it.
00:23:13:11 - 00:23:22:14
Daniel
It's Chris. I looked it up or Chris O'Donnell or. Let me see it. Hold on. I have it here on my notes. Let me see.
00:23:26:20 - 00:23:30:20
Liam
Okay. Yeah.
00:23:30:22 - 00:23:34:18
Daniel
David O'Dowd. Yeah.
00:23:34:20 - 00:23:37:10
Liam
Yeah.
00:23:37:10 - 00:23:45:23
Liam
for to introduce Aaron Rodgers. But, yeah, it's from APM and Netflix has a, blanket, licensing deal with APM.
00:23:45:23 - 00:24:13:05
Liam
So whenever we make a series, Netflix Original, we have access to APM, extreme music, I think among amongst others, they have blanket licensing deals with these. And so we were kind of we had this other intro that I had, that I had created and it was a little more focused and we wanted something a little more broad, you know, to tease more of the series, what's going to come, etc..
00:24:13:05 - 00:24:36:03
Liam
And Netflix likes to do that. I understand it. So, I didn't really have any ideas. You know, this is where I really have to give all credit to, Alex Smith, editor of episode one. I was super attached to this other opening. You know, I'll be 100% honest. And so I was like, I don't have any other ideas, but, you know, if you show me something I like, we'll think about changing it.
00:24:36:03 - 00:24:51:06
Liam
You know, I had one of my real director moments, and, you know, a week goes by and Alex is like, all right, so I've got something here. I took a couple swings, you know, interested to see what you think and, like, you know, drops a link in slack, and I watch it, and I was like, oh, my God.
00:24:51:08 - 00:25:16:16
Liam
Like, it was going to take a lot to convince me to change from the cold open that I had. And he did it, you know, and I think Alex just had the idea of, like, a needle drop would be cool here, a song we don't really have a budget, you know, for a lot of music licensing on these projects, if you're talking about a, you know, a big, big, a big name song.
00:25:16:17 - 00:25:21:06
Liam
So Alex just went in APM and started digging around for songs,
00:25:25:20 - 00:25:47:01
Daniel
That's so. I don't see it. I thought it was Bonnie there at first, like. Because just the vibe of it. And I was like. I haven't heard that song before, but it's like, that's a killer opening opening scene.
00:25:47:01 - 00:25:59:01
Liam
idea of, like, the people you don't know, I think was really thematically perfect. Someone who, you know, people have, kind of written off and they think they know him.
00:25:59:01 - 00:26:28:06
Liam
You know, people have an idea of who he is because of this or because of that thing. And, you know, I've found that a lot with the way the series has been received. You know, I think, a lot a high percentage of people are confirming, however they felt about Aaron beforehand. But I think that the, the, the hope for the series is that people would go in, as I keep saying, with an open heart and a curious mind to hopefully be challenged or surprised by what they see.
00:26:28:06 - 00:26:33:00
Liam
And I think that that song really speaks to that. So I thought it was a great way to to open it up.
00:26:33:04 - 00:26:54:01
Daniel
Yeah, absolutely. And I'm curious to, you know, how do you go about structuring a story like this? Because you have, you know, multiple different things happening where you have to set up the backstory. You have the present, which I always think the present is challenging because you don't quite know how it's going to end with, like, is he going to come back?
00:26:54:01 - 00:27:36:19
Daniel
Are the Jets going to make it, you know, is he going to retire? Do you have all these things? How do you guys like figure out, you know, structuring the storytelling in here as things are happening in real time?
00:27:36:21 - 00:28:48:09
Liam
Right.
00:28:48:11 - 00:29:10:05
Liam
So.
00:29:10:07 - 00:29:45:04
Liam
There's. You.
00:29:45:05 - 00:30:26:10
Liam
Write.
00:30:26:11 - 00:30:41:22
Daniel
Some.
00:30:42:00 - 00:30:45:19
Daniel
But it's definitely complex. And you made it simple.
00:30:45:21 - 00:31:00:20
Liam
Yeah.
00:31:00:20 - 00:32:05:19
Daniel
And then you mentioned like this really being a character study. I think episode two really open that up. Obviously there's all the clips on social media and everything, but what for you. What was that experience like going down to Costa Rica and like kind of experiencing that, you know, as a fly on the wall?
00:32:05:21 - 00:33:04:12
Daniel
Yeah. What makes sense?
00:33:04:14 - 00:33:47:06
Liam
Right. Right.
00:34:07:19 - 00:35:07:18
Liam
Yeah. Yeah, I remember that.
00:35:07:20 - 00:35:10:22
Daniel
First.
00:35:10:22 - 00:35:34:10
Daniel
my biggest takeaway was. Okay. Yes. It's probably seen as, like, alternative. Maybe it's not for me specifically, but I really committed him for, like, dealing and handling with his pain. And if that's the way he wants to do it, like, that's great. But, you know, having seen, you know, quarterbacking it at a high level, like it is a lot to deal with on top of injuries, all that, like you said.
00:35:34:10 - 00:35:56:12
Daniel
And you know, not everyone in every profession is like they might not want to deal with it or like just stuff it down and like let it fester there. But I, I thought it was cool and important that he at least was trying to do something about it and really, like better himself.
00:35:58:02 - 00:36:22:20
Liam
outlet. In religion and God, I think a lot of people in the NFL have that spiritual outlet, that spiritual support for themselves. And yeah, I think at that level, when you're dealing with that level pressure, that level of fame, it is important to have a spiritual outlet, you know, and this is Aaron's, you know, he's into meditation and, found plant medicine.
00:36:22:20 - 00:36:40:11
Liam
And as you learned in episode two, there was a lot of stuff that he was dealing with personally, right? We all have stuff we deal with personally. Our inner demons, you know, if you will, our our childhood trauma. And he hadn't really found a way to, to deal with that, you know, and this was the way that he found.
00:36:40:11 - 00:36:40:21
Liam
And I think
00:36:46:18 - 00:36:59:04
Daniel
Exactly. Exactly.
00:36:59:06 - 00:37:03:06
Daniel
Did you tell him that before you guys went down there, that you. That you had or.
00:37:03:12 - 00:37:40:12
Liam
Yeah. That's cool.
00:37:40:14 - 00:37:46:14
Liam
Yeah.
00:37:46:14 - 00:38:14:03
Daniel
Let's dive into, like, some of the nitty gritty, like, production around it. I, I like that, especially those, like, interviews in Costa Rica. They seem very simple. Let's nerd out for a second. Like, what were you shooting on? What camera were shooting on? What lenses were you're using? For majority of this, this documentary.
00:38:34:21 - 00:38:41:02
Daniel
Me too. Fellow red Gemini shooter. Oh, nice.
00:38:51:20 - 00:38:52:22
Daniel
Oh, nice.
00:39:20:21 - 00:39:32:01
Daniel
It's a great combo for sure.
00:39:32:03 - 00:39:34:16
Daniel
Yeah. For the image quality.
00:39:48:17 - 00:41:07:07
Daniel
Yeah. And that like the Costa Rica interview. Did you have a crew down there. Like it seemed pretty minimal from what I could gather. And I imagine you couldn't have a big crew down there.
00:41:07:07 - 00:41:09:13
Liam
Kentucky when we went for the Kentucky Derby.
00:41:09:13 - 00:41:11:10
Liam
Aaron goes the Kentucky Derby with a bunch of his friends every
00:41:11:10 - 00:41:12:18
Daniel
Yeah. Yeah. Every year.
00:41:12:19 - 00:41:17:03
Liam
Yeah. Yep.
00:41:17:03 - 00:41:30:02
Liam
And so for each one, I just pointed in a different direction. I had a single LED light panel. I was doing the sound and the camera by myself, and my producer was asking the questions.
00:41:30:03 - 00:41:41:03
Liam
So, you know, those four interviews, when I see them, I'm like, as a filmmaker, as a DP, could they look a little better? Yeah, probably.
00:41:41:03 - 00:41:56:02
Liam
But they're not. They're not on screen very long and they look good enough, you know what I mean? And there's part of me that feels bad sitting here in a podcast interview and saying that good enough is good enough, you know, because at the end of the day, we have a lot of pride in what we do, right?
00:41:56:02 - 00:42:15:19
Liam
We want everything to look good. But I said this to my my DP, David Mark, in who I share the cinematography credit with David and I've worked together a lot. And he and I shot we went up to Chico and did that round of interviews together. We went to green Bay and did Matt LaFleur and, Tom Clements together.
00:42:15:21 - 00:42:24:05
Liam
And all those were shot again, single camera with one, one light panel, and we were running order. It was just me and David. We showed up at Lambeau Field and
00:42:38:17 - 00:43:33:10
Liam
Yeah.
00:43:33:10 - 00:44:03:11
Liam
enough, right? It definitely has to still look like it belongs in a premium documentary on Netflix. But, you know, again, I think that the the quality of the content is ultimately more important than how good it looks. And so I would rather I would rather go for a production paradigm that is going to, that is going to create the most intimacy, the most opportunity for vulnerability, and the most opportunity for this person to just be comfortable.
00:44:03:11 - 00:44:37:16
Liam
Right. As soon as they're six lights, it's they're just less comfortable, you know? So that's how we did most of this series, man. And I'm really proud of it because I think that that's, it's a production paradigm that a lot of people will resist, you know, and, David was one of them at times, you know, and I really had to, like, convince him, to go and work with me this way and, you know, shout out to him for for being willing to do it, because I think that he saw the benefit of that, you know, and, I think he's really happy with how everything looks at the end of the
00:44:37:16 - 00:44:46:17
Liam
day. And he kind of came to embrace my, my feelings about why that's the best way to do things.
00:44:48:22 - 00:45:08:17
Daniel
No. And that's like. I think it's so fitting to for the story. Because my takeaway from this was like. It is an intimate portrait. Like into his life. And so how that all ties together with the rest of the interview, I think in this specific instant, like, it really works. So I think it's amazing that you shot like 90% by yourself.
00:45:08:17 - 00:45:23:05
Daniel
Like, you know, I think it's it's easy to think, oh, like such a big thing that you have this big crew. But no, you can actually like get a lot done, especially for folks like myself who can kind of know how to do everything and be a Swiss Army knife. So I'm sure that came quite a bit handy for this.
00:45:23:05 - 00:45:49:01
Daniel
For you.
00:45:49:02 - 00:45:50:08
Liam
Right.
00:45:50:10 - 00:46:06:23
Daniel
I have the same thoughts all the time.
00:46:07:01 - 00:46:11:05
Daniel
Yeah, and I feel like it's kind of the next future.
00:46:11:05 - 00:46:20:04
Liam
Yeah. I mean, I think it has to be our budgets are getting squeezed, you know, and ultimately being flexible and nimble is
00:46:57:05 - 00:46:59:17
Liam
biggest crew days. Those are the biggest production days.
00:46:59:17 - 00:47:28:03
Daniel
Now, the far stuff that was shot previously, like, separately, from what I could gather. Because that footage was amazing as well.
00:48:33:09 - 00:48:39:23
Liam
departure from our timeline that I felt like the only place it would work would be as like, set up.
00:48:40:01 - 00:48:42:05
Liam
But it worked beautifully in the end.
00:48:42:07 - 00:49:24:18
Daniel
Now, I worked briefly I hooked you in and then like I, I love the ending that there was actually a resolution of his whole like legacy character versus like personal character. And like despite his struggle it seemed like he figured some things out. It wasn't left open ended. So I was kind of glad to hear and see that it ended that way versus like, well, I'm just going to be externally struggling like through this.
00:50:05:19 - 00:50:28:07
Liam
moments. Like it's still the journey is still worth it, you know? And, I thought that was a really beautiful reflection at the end because I think when we when we evaluate greatness. Right. It's always about results, right? How many Super Bowl rings you have and I think I learned that Aaron is great in a lot of other ways.
00:50:28:07 - 00:50:57:01
Liam
He is a great teammate. He's a great friend. The people that he has in his life around him are like high quality people. You know, that was my experience. Every time we would meet, whether it's, you know, surgeon and physical therapist, his friends who he's watching Super Bowl with, his, his old teammates, who he goes to the Kentucky Derby with, the the equipment people behind the scenes at the Jets, all of his teammates, his coaches.
00:50:57:01 - 00:51:17:23
Liam
I mean, everyone we spoke to, just really appreciates him for who he is, you know? And it was kind of a hard. It was hard in a way, because, like, we'd go into all these interviews with people and we'd always be like, so like, you say something bad about him, like, like like what are some of his flaws?
00:51:17:23 - 00:51:34:11
Liam
You know, we'd like, try to draw people to, like, at least give us some tension in a lot of ways. But I think the truth is, and this is my experience of the man, so much of Aaron's attention is in here, you know, so much of his tension is with himself. It's
00:51:49:12 - 00:52:14:15
Daniel
Absolutely. And I think, like you said, it shines through in the different interviews you have. I'm curious like on the editing side of this. Just to wrap up a few more questions here. But like on the editing side, like, are you like editing scenes and interviews and seeing how to fit together? How do you, like, tackle something that's so big and has such a long runtime and like piecing that puzzle together?
00:52:14:15 - 00:52:32:10
Liam
That's, Yeah, that's a hard question. I think, honestly, I would answer that with one word, and that's instinct. You know, I'm big on following my instincts. And I think in the a story in the present day, like, yeah, we shoot a scene and it's like, let's go tinker with it. Let's see if there's something here, you know?
00:52:32:12 - 00:52:50:04
Liam
But I think there's also buckets of stuff as well. Like, like rehab was a bucket in episode one, you know, and I can I can't tell you how many rehab sessions we shot that didn't end up in the film, because there's only room for so many rehab shots, right? And there's definitely some babies you have to kill.
00:52:50:04 - 00:53:11:20
Liam
Like, when, you know, Al Michaels was at the physical therapy gym one day and they're talking about State Farm commercials and how, you know, they well, they lost their best actor still love you state for, you know, like, there are these moments in my head that I can remember that ended up on the cutting room floor that I feel like could have been in the movie.
00:53:11:22 - 00:53:29:12
Liam
But there's also plenty of moments we captured that was like just another day on the altar treadmill, you know? So I think that, like, there's definitely buckets of stuff and we only have so much time for physical therapy. So if we have 100 hours of physical therapy and we're only going to use 20, like that's, that's one way to whittle it down.
00:53:29:14 - 00:54:01:00
Liam
Right? But I think, when it came to the B story, it was kind of like the way we broke it up, certainly in episode one was like, okay, we have falling in love with football, high school recruitment process, Butte College, Cal the draft. Now you're backing up Brett. Now you're a starter right. So it was like it was like these different pods high school, community college, college draft, backup starter.
00:54:01:02 - 00:54:22:18
Liam
So it was like you can kind of like, those are the stories we need to tell. We need to learn. Kind of like what his what his journey was in each of those places. You know, high school was really about learning the skill of throwing the football, you know, and studying the game. And then community college was really about building his confidence because he hadn't gotten recruited and he'd gotten overlooked.
00:54:22:18 - 00:54:38:22
Liam
And he had this chip on his shoulder. And he needed he needed to find a coach who believed in him so he could build his confidence. And that having a college. And then Cal was really about connecting with Jeff Tedford, intellectual coach, and learning how to run an offense, you know, and then and then the draft slide is like this big ego death.
00:54:38:22 - 00:54:55:10
Liam
He has, you know, then backing up Brett is about learning from one of his heroes and learning to navigate the league and what it is to be a professional. And then and then you become a starter, you know, what does that mean? So it's kind of like these different phases of his career and how he grew in each one of those phases.
00:54:57:06 - 00:55:36:21
Daniel
And do you and your editor have, like, a mastered like Google doc you're working off of, like going through this, like, how do you guys like, get on the same page about all this.
00:55:36:23 - 00:55:38:03
Liam
Yeah.
00:55:38:05 - 00:56:09:01
Daniel
And I I've heard that, you know, you've worked with Netflix a couple times. I did hear that. They typically have, like, pretty extensive note process. You know, obviously films is involved with Ross. Like, how do you kind of do that dance of taking feedback. But keeping your vision intact as well.
00:56:09:02 - 00:56:41:20
Daniel
Yeah.
00:56:41:22 - 00:56:43:11
Liam
Right.
00:57:14:00 - 00:57:20:13
Liam
my creative vision. But, like I said, I've found Netflix to be very, very good partners.
00:57:20:15 - 00:57:44:07
Liam
You know, Gotham and I are obviously we work closely together, as a directing duo. You know, I would say I'm more in the weeds. I'm more in the trenches on a day to day basis. And Gotham is is really good at being a sounding board, you know, because I, I have some ideas that are just a little too wild sometimes, you know, and it's important to have someone who's keeping more of a 30,000ft view.
00:57:48:06 - 00:58:28:03
Daniel
He's really good at that. Yeah.
00:58:28:03 - 00:58:39:22
Daniel
Yeah. That makes sense. That makes sense, I'm sure. Are you, like, sick of it by the end of end of it? Or is it. Are you still, Do you still like it by the end? Yeah. I'm. Well, I'm sure you've seen the film quite a bit now. At this.
00:58:39:22 - 00:58:57:00
Liam
Point.
00:58:57:00 - 00:58:58:12
Liam
Because at the end of the day, if you watch
00:59:39:00 - 01:00:10:18
Daniel
And with your friends too. Yeah.
01:00:11:01 - 01:00:37:21
Daniel
That's a good tidbit. Before, you know, before we wrap up here. Like, do you have any other, you know, 1 or 2 takeaways for that young filmmaker that sees this like, oh, man, I want to do what Liam's doing. How do I get there? I think instinct is is a really good tip. Do you have anything more? I would love to share with the viewers and listeners.
01:01:23:05 - 01:01:32:12
Daniel
Well, I thought it was interesting to like your story. You. You really got your foot in the door as an editor, you know, like that's what. So it's just you never know where things can take
01:01:32:12 - 01:01:53:12
Liam
And I also think that it helps when I'm out shooting just to touch on that, like to have an editorial brain, you know, to think about, like, oh, what were those shots that I like to have as an editor or what were the you know, I make sure I'm getting the wides and the tights and the, the inserts and the, you know, the zooms and the little things that I like as an editor.
01:01:53:14 - 01:01:57:23
Liam
It's it's good to have those things in my mind when I'm out with a camera in my hands as well.
01:01:58:01 - 01:03:12:11
Daniel
Yeah. Yeah. Shooting like an editor is is 100% the key to being a great documentary filmmaker? Now, what about what's next? You've obviously had, you know, super busy last couple years with the McGregor G League. Now the Aaron Rodgers doc. What, what are you thinking about next?
01:03:12:13 - 01:03:20:15
Daniel
Same here.
01:03:20:15 - 01:03:31:18
Liam
put my nose up my snobby, creative nose up at YouTube a little bit. I always saw it as more of like a place for, like, content creators, you know? And like, I never saw it as very premium.
01:03:31:20 - 01:03:57:19
Liam
And I've really had that that perspective challenged recently. I've been finding a lot. I've been spending more time on YouTube and finding a lot of what I would deem as, you know, premium elevated content. And, you know, I like the idea of being able to go out and find my own audience. You know, I think that part of my frustration in the industry, and I think this is true for many filmmakers, is you're
01:04:03:06 - 01:04:39:01
Daniel
Yes. Yes. Yeah.
01:04:39:01 - 01:04:46:09
Liam
number four on Netflix. But that doesn't mean that I feel like there's a community around my content, you know what I mean?
01:04:46:09 - 01:05:03:14
Liam
Because I, you know, yeah, sure, I can go on Twitter and I can see what people are saying about it and whatever else, but just knowing that a lot of people are watching it versus knowing who those people are, like, that's very appealing to me, you know, to be able to post content and kind of know my audience a little bit.
01:05:03:15 - 01:05:42:04
Liam
So yeah, I'm just, I want to try something new. So, I'm starting to create content for YouTube. I'm going to, have a couple of different buckets of types of content that I want to do. I want to do, adventure videos because I'm big into backpacking and the outdoors. So I'm starting to document my backpacking trips, in a very kind of cinematic, visual way, but also, putting myself in front of the camera a little bit more and, bringing a little personality to I found, you know, it's interesting, going back to what I learned in acting school is I was very uncomfortable in front of the camera when
01:05:42:04 - 01:05:55:22
Liam
I was pretending to be someone else. But I'm a little less uncomfortable when I can just be myself. So that's been kind of enjoyable for me. To kind of put myself in front of the camera again, and kind of see what that feels like.
01:06:20:02 - 01:06:28:03
Liam
again, there's just always that slight barrier of, yeah, but he's a four time NFL MVP, Super Bowl champion. Like, I, I can't relate to that. You know, and I think there's something
01:06:28:14 - 01:06:41:14
Liam
Right.
01:06:41:15 - 01:06:51:13
Daniel
Well, there we go. Do you have your channel up? We'll give it a shot. Are you working on behind the scenes?
01:06:51:15 - 01:07:28:04
Liam
Okay.
01:07:28:06 - 01:07:37:11
Liam
Wow.
01:07:37:13 - 01:08:12:01
Liam
Okay.
01:08:12:03 - 01:08:27:11
Daniel
Yeah. We can't wait to see that. I'll make sure to link in the show notes and be on the lookout for that. I'm also like, as well, more interested in putting more time and effort into YouTube. So we'll have to do some sort of collaboration here. Coming up.
01:08:27:11 - 01:08:47:15
Daniel
have to, start training out. Dude, once that kid comes, man. You're, It definitely changes things, but, yeah, yeah, but it's it's so worth it. And, Dude, thank you so much for coming on the Frame by Frame podcast and sharing your story. It is also some amazing production stories around Enigma and new documentary.
01:08:47:16 - 01:09:28:11
Daniel
Congratulations. I know, you know, it's such a big accomplishment. One to get something greenlit to to make it good and then three to like be out in the world. So that's like no small feat. And I definitely like, you know, commend you for that regardless of like where it lands and if people like it or whatever. I think that in itself is just such a big accomplishment in today's world.
01:09:28:11 - 01:09:43:04
Daniel
Thanks for watching the Frame by Frame podcast. I hope that this episode was insightful for you. If you want to learn more, make sure that you subscribe to my channel and if you could rate us on the platform you're listening to, that would be a huge help to get the word out.
01:09:43:04 - 01:09:52:20
Daniel
I would really appreciate five stars if this conversation was helpful for you. Thank you so much for watching, for listening and we'll see you on the next episode of Frame by Frame,